Political Parties In Australia

[Grandad]

Well Bruce, I was rather hoping it wouldn't.

I just get a little tired of the complaining.

All politicians are liars. They're all corrupt. The system is against us. Doesn't matter who you vote for, they're all the same. Wah Wah Wah. We're F*ck*d no matter what we do.

Well, here's a thought. How about turning the conversation around to what things might be able to be changed? How could we do things better?

This is one topic I've had some very in depth and interesting discussions on in the past. Others are the pros & cons of GST totally replacing income tax or do we need three levels of government? How about just local and federal? Or even Local and State and Federal stuff handled via a national congress like we've seen during the pandemic.
Anything to get the conversation onto something positive rather than just complaining about everything.

Will any of these discussions change anything? Probably not. No, definitely not. But..... I do find it more healthy than just complaining & bitching about things.

Political discussions are banned on most forums. But I thought on this one maybe I could hear some more ideas or issues that I hadn't considered. There appears to be some highly intelligent people here. So, I thought.....Give it a go.

But, maybe I was wrong. It wouldn't be the first time and probably won't be the last.

Jim

[Busman]

Yep Jim, plenty of keyboard warriors that whine and complain about the system but offer exactly zilch about any change or alternatives.
We'll all be rooooned............

[native pepper]

How did I know this thread would end up with Global Warming & the eventual end of Human Habitation?
Easy!!

Actually Bruce don't think there'll be an end to human habitation, nor do I see global warming as having a say in the collapse of world societies. What I foresee in the future, is nothing new, every society and ideology in the past has reached their zenith, rapidly collapsed and disappeared. Something new rises from the ashes and the process is repeated.

It's not a doomsday scenario, just something humans tend to do big time every couple of thousand years and during those times on a much smaller scale. Our form of ideological society has been around for a few thousand years. During that time there have been many regimes who have tried to take control, now we have reached a stage where the majority no longer believe in what has held societies together, mostly by force. Our technology has opened up the world and recorded history has shown us different understandings compared to what we have been led to believe. That goes for all aspects of society, not just belief.

When you put our current scenario alongside past regimes and belief systems collapse, we see similar scenarios all at the point where there is no way to go but down. Our economic system is collapsing, as the claims of democracy whither in the storm of fact constantly reminding us that things aren't going as planned by those who promised they would, they just get richer. No peace or world love, economic growth totally unsustainable unless driven by population growth, society stopping viruses throwing business into mayhem and we have the perfect scenario for big changes.

Bruce, you could add climate change as probably adding weight to the scenario, but that's not going to kill us, the only thing that kills off humans. I would hazard a guess most on this forum see the problems with our political system and unless there is a revolution, nothing will change and we are up shit creek in a barbwire canoe without a paddle.

[Newcastle George]

Anything to get the conversation onto something positive rather than just complaining about everything.

Jim

Jim,

That is what is starting to happen with this topic

George

[Grandad]

Well Bruce, Terry has a valid point. Party politics is definitely making its way into every facet of our lives.

There was a former CEO of our public hospital that was quite clearly on a path to health minister of Victoria for the Libs. He made no bones about it,

His plans were cut short when a few things about the running of the hospital came to light and he was shown the door. But politics was definitely his driving force. So, politics, specifically party politics is evident in far more places than just council.
If anything, it's further evidence, to me anyway, that the abolishment of parties can only improve things.

I had a fascinating discussion many years ago with a workmate while we were on a job site. It was about the time that Keating was first talking about the GST idea. My mate was anti and I was leaning towards pro. Anyway, we bantered back and forth until around lunchtime until we both realised we had swapped sides. I'd convinced him and visa versa. And the debate continued.

At the end of the day no discussion is ever going to change anything. But that one conversation changed me and how I look at things. It has led to me having a very low tolerance for many people, no-one here specifically, who just want to bitch and complain. I often reply to this type of thing with "Ok, so what would you change?" Often the answer is something like, "Just blow all the bastards up".

Yup, sure. That'll fix everything. So glad you've really put some thought into this.

I'm still hopeful that maybe someone may have some thoughts on the subject of losing political parties. I'm fairly convinced it could help immensely. But I don't necessarily just want to hear from people who agree with me. What might be the downside of no parties.

Terry mentioned committees. I hopefully responded in a way that encourages further discussion. Maybe it wasn't seen that way.
Heaing only from who people agree with you leads to stagnation as far as I've seen. Only when our ideas are challenged do we have to dig deeper and think about issues more carefully. And then. We learn stuff.

Let's start with, what's something about political parties that work well, that would be lost if they weren't here anymore?


Jim

[Grandad]

Anything to get the conversation onto something positive rather than just complaining about everything.

Jim

Jim,

That is what is starting to happen with this topic

George

Fair comment. As my daughter often reminds me, be the change you want to see.

Jim

[native pepper]

Let's start with, what's something about political parties that work well, that would be lost if they weren't here anymore?
Jim

I had a discussion with some peole surrounding your suggestion a few years ago, we couldn't think of one thing that works well involving political parties, other than corruption and nepotism.

There is only one way I can think of that would improve our governance system, that's putting the entire governance system, voting and policy-making online, then have referendum style voting for everything and make it voluntary. Set up properly it woud give everyone the chance to have their say and vote on things that were of interest or involved their lives. We would get much better outcomes and if we did the same with the justive system, we would save billions and actually get justice for people who don't have influence or money.

[Grandad]

Native pepper, I've not had an opportunity for this particular facet to be discussed. Until now of course. I'm struggling to come up with any pros for the concept myself.

What you're suggesting in the people voting on every issue is referred to as direct democracy. It has its good and bad points. If I remember what I've previously learnt correctly it was the original format back at the very start of the Roman Empire when they first designed what we now call democracy. It didn't last very long before being replaced by Representative Democracy which theoretically is what most use now.

I have concerns about an electronic system of voting being bulletproof but lets assume something could be designed that would eliminate any chance of multiple votes by one person etc.
Normally I would argue against non-compulsory voting but for what you're suggesting this may well be the exception. Only people who have an interest or are affected by the subject matter need vote. By comparing the number of people voting on any given matter to the overall population that could also give the people in Canberra an idea of how important, or otherwise that particular issue is to the population in general. So, non-compulsory may well be preferable in this instance.

But, I can't help but wonder if maybe your concerns about leaving the decision making to the MP's is a result of our current party system where pollies can and do vote on things with more regard to other factors than just is this a good or bad idea? Voting along party lines or to ensure the backing of various lobbyists etc to be funded to get reelected.

Wouldn't the removal of political parties remove that issue?
The only thing any individual MP would be concerned about is being reelected by the people in their electorate. So logically, his vote would be based solely on what is good for his electorate or the country in general. Maybe?

I know here in Bendigo, we are usually considered a safe Labor seat. But I dispute that. Yes, we generally vote Labor but it so happens the two representatives for this area are two ladies who do a hell of a lot for this area. I suspect if they were both LNP they would still win. We tend to vote for the person more than the party. Maybe that's what makes me wonder about abolishing political parties.

Jim

[T1 Terry]

Let's start with, what's something about political parties that work well, that would be lost if they weren't here anymore?


Jim

Maybe you need to come up with a plus for this one, I can't think of any Intelligence can be linked to one party or another, a lot of very smart cookies as well as dumb shittes in all of them, well a few do seem to have more than their share of the latter
What party has had the most true statesmen? That is what is missing from politics these days, that deep down love for the country and its well being, not getting re-elected and what their final political position will translate into the pension for life and business contacts.
About the only benefit I can think of is the electoral paper, how many invalid votes would there be if everyone had to number the list below the line rather than a party box above the line?
On line voting would sort that, if you make an error it will not allow you to submit the vote. The single vote would also solve that problem to a degree, you only need to tick one box.

T1 Terry

[native pepper]

Jim, my idea is to have no politicians at all, just managers of departments and state-owned enterprises who are elected by the people because they have the best method of implementing the people's wishes and have the on-hands experience and success within that particular industry and have provided the people with a business plan of implementation.

We don't need politicians or even local councilors, if everything was online people would be able to make decisions benefiting the majority. Where I live, we've had a number of controversial policies and developments put forward backed by council management and or councilors, but not necessarily the people. So they start a petition and when they have the numbers, they present it to council and every time the council backs down, because from what I've seen and been involved in, most people in our area are very interested in what goes on here, so read and sign petitions.

We've got rid of a few general managers that way and when they decided to amalgamate our council with a bigger council, the petition recieved over 80% of ratepayers objecting to the amalgamation and there it ended. However the local government organisation and politicians are still pushing it, but getting zero support from ratepayers here.

Putting everything online, is a safe and very secure thing to do, if we use the safest most advanced operating system on the planet, Linux/Unix, which many people may not know but it controls more than 98% of computerisation on and off the planet. Windows and apple don't get a look in as they are proprietary systems purely designed for profit and data mining and last century technology, whilst Unix/Linux are state of the art and set up properly, are hack-proof.

By setting up a system that is separate from the standard internet and having specific authorisation techniques would provide real people-driven and controlled governance. It would also save us billions a year as we wouldn't have elitist moron politicians ripping of the system and abusing it for the rest of their lives.

Then we would get really good policies, which would make people lives much better and also reign in the multinationals and monopolies controlling life purely for profit growth, at the expense of the people and the environment. Done the right way we could save many billions each year, drop the cost of living and at the same time increase the standard of living for all. Not rocket science as everything needed to do this is available now and ready to go, all it needs is for the people to take control.

Sadly, the only way to do this would be to get a party elected that would bring in these changes and do themselves out of a job. If the party designed to do this had candidates who were experienced in each department or enterprise and presented their detailed plans before an election. It would give the people something real to think about and vote for, instead of now, paryty politcians make ridiculous promies then do the opposite and are never held to account, just get huge rewards for destroying the country and our society.

In my opinion, everyone working for the people should receive no more than 3 times the aged pension rate and nothing more. It should be a privilege and honor to work for your council, state or country, not a greedy grab for power and money. The highest-paid people in the country, should be those in the defence forces, who are involved in active service and the second-highest paid should be aged and real invalid pensioners and general defence forces.