Should caravan owners undergo compulsory towing education?

[native pepper]

Also agree and have a multi combination licence and long experience in driving road trains and oversize vehicles. Yet still don't class myself as more than a capable driver and the only accident I've had, was 2 weeks after getting my licence at 18 and stupidly turned to chat to the girl in the back seat of my new (old) car. Didn't see the idiot in the ford mercury stop in the middle of the road in front of me to talk to some girls and hit them in the back, smashing the radiator of my lovely old 4 door 6 cylinder vauxhall. Since, have not allowed my concentration to waver.

Everyone towing something bigger than a box trailer, should hold an articulated licence and as caravans are pig trailers, they need to do a special course. I know the first time towed a fuel pig, freaked me out, it was behind 3 trailers and felt like someone pulling the entire rig from side to side at times after the first fuel dump. But dog trailers, even behind 4 trailers, they just sit there.

[Izabarack]

What do others think on the topic

I would and will find it difficult to make any judgments until someone sets out exactly what "education" is proposed. Education could range from a printed brochure through to 40 hours in a class room. Current licensee barriers are limited to knowledge of the road rules and a one time practical demonstration that the person seeking a license can pilot a vehicle down the road and not break any road rules.

After that, I would need to see the research data that shows that the education given has some effect on, what, crash rates? The control group for the research would need to be tested before hand to ensure they did not have the "education" before letting them on the road to establish some sort of base rate against which to compare the treatment effect of the "education". Has anyone yet shown any causal relationship between some vague concept of "education" and crash rates?

Iza

[T1 Terry]

What do others think on the topic

I would and will find it difficult to make any judgments until someone sets out exactly what "education" is proposed. Education could range from a printed brochure through to 40 hours in a class room. Current licensee barriers are limited to knowledge of the road rules and a one time practical demonstration that the person seeking a license can pilot a vehicle down the road and not break any road rules.

After that, I would need to see the research data that shows that the education given has some effect on, what, crash rates? The control group for the research would need to be tested before hand to ensure they did not have the "education" before letting them on the road to establish some sort of base rate against which to compare the treatment effect of the "education". Has anyone yet shown any causal relationship between some vague concept of "education" and crash rates?

Iza

A reasonable question, was there any research done before any form of licencing was introduced? As far as this bit

Current licensee barriers are limited to knowledge of the road rules and a one time practical demonstration that the person seeking a license can pilot a vehicle down the road and not break any road rules.

it appears you have little more experience regarding licence testing than the basic car licence before P plates were introduced. Maybe if you actually had some more recent licence testing to gauge your opinion on it might be different. For my two bobs worth on that subject, everyone should have to resit both the knowledge test and driver test every 10 yrs with the testing reflecting the knowledge level expected with the number of yrs experience. Let's face it, a driver with the skill level they had when they got their red P plates should still be wearing red P plates and restricted to the same rules, an unrestricted licence should only be awarded to a driver who has shown they actually learnt to drive better than a P plater.......

T1 Terry

[native pepper]

Most people know the road rules enough to not get booked or into trouble, so if there were to be any form of test for vans, it should be a practical course in nature and application. The best way to learn is to be shown then do it.

[Mrbolly]

At the risk of repeating some comments made by others, my view is that there should be some form of test for towing a caravan as opposed to a camper trailer. Now that is probably a point at which conjecture on size will eventuate.
For those who have been professional drivers, the problem of meeting and then needing to pass caravans is a constant challenge, particularly those caravans which are either unstable or just under the control of those who are clearly struggling.
Drivers who cannot reverse a caravan are fairly commonplace hence caravan parks are quick to offer to put a caravan in the appointed spot.
My reason for suggesting a formal qualification is necessary is teaching a new caravan owner the safety requirements of loading the tow vehicle, loafing and trimming the caravan and the necessity to ensure the ball weight of the loaded vehicle is correct to ensure poor loading does not result in the tail wagging the dog, as we so often see on the road.
Yes the various authorities are jumping onto caravanners now and testing ball weight etc. but while that helps to sort out the ones on the road that are dangerously loaded and will contribute to the states consolidated revenue, unless the driver knows what is required and how to manage that, being on the road is too often left to blind luck and the elements.
You could possibly even throw in a short component on courtesy, but I guess that should apply to all drivers, not just caravanners.

[Izabarack]

From https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct= ... Td4oqXKjQF

A licence for safer streets
The first Queensland Driver Licence was issued in 1910. It
was prompted by the first recorded road fatality in the
state, which occurred on the corner of Brookes and
Wickham streets, Fortitude Valley (near the Brisbane
Exhibition Grounds). A speeding vehicle struck down two
women as they crossed the road to catch a tram. One of
the women, Amelia Down, died in hospital the next day.
It was later revealed that the driver was known to Brisbane
police for his questionable driving skills. Public concern
soon led to the introduction of driver testing and a system
of licensing.

The .pdf from which the above was taken makes no mention of any intention to make the roads safer by introducing licenses.

Iza

[Izabarack]

..........., an unrestricted licence should only be awarded to a driver who has shown they actually learnt to drive better than a P plater.......

What would driving better look like Terry? "Diving better" and "education" are terms so vague as to be meaningless in a discussion that seems to concentrate on reducing the number and severity of crashes involving caravans.

There are research data that shows that young persons who have completed an advanced driver's course often go on to have horrific crashes. One interpretation of the data is that the kids come to think they are even more bullet-proof (Personal Fantasy) than others and take more and more risks on the road until it all comes undone.

The testing for and the awarding of a driver's license only indicates some minimal (you don't need to get all the questions correct) knowledge of the road rules and that they also drove the license tester around for a while and did a reasonable job.

A good start for collecttng info on the effectiveness of "eduction" might be a 100% survey of those who have done some sort of Tow-ed course and compare their crash rates (including those heart stopping moments that did not result in a crash) to the rest of the van towing population. I have personal experience of course grads who now think it is fine to constantly and consistently travel at, or just above, the posted speed limit because they have "done a course"

Iza

[Izabarack]

The best way to learn is to be shown then do it.

A very smart man name of David Kolb reckons there are four best ways to learn. Kolb's work has influenced the work of skills training design for a lot of years.

Iza

[T1 Terry]

..........., an unrestricted licence should only be awarded to a driver who has shown they actually learnt to drive better than a P plater.......

What would driving better look like Terry? "Diving better" and "education" are terms so vague as to be meaningless in a discussion that seems to concentrate on reducing the number and severity of crashes involving caravans.

There are research data that shows that young persons who have completed an advanced driver's course often go on to have horrific crashes. One interpretation of the data is that the kids come to think they are even more bullet-proof (Personal Fantasy) than others and take more and more risks on the road until it all comes undone.

The testing for and the awarding of a driver's license only indicates some minimal (you don't need to get all the questions correct) knowledge of the road rules and that they also drove the license tester around for a while and did a reasonable job.

A good start for collecttng info on the effectiveness of "eduction" might be a 100% survey of those who have done some sort of Tow-ed course and compare their crash rates (including those heart stopping moments that did not result in a crash) to the rest of the van towing population. I have personal experience of course grads who now think it is fine to constantly and consistently travel at, or just above, the posted speed limit because they have "done a course"

Iza

So, in your personal opinion it is unsafe to tow a van at the posted speed limit? This raises the question, is it your lack of the required skill level that makes towing a van at the posted speed dangerous?
or
Are all vans inherently dangerous if towed at the posted speed limit?

As for the difference between a skilled driver and one that is still at the red P plate skill level, a suitably skilled driver doesn't need to think about what actions to take, it should have become instinctive as the knowledge required should be stored in the cerebral cortex, the same as you don't need to think about taking the next breath or your heart beating, how to walk, talk, read and even type on a computer.
As far as the research regarding advanced trained drivers having horrific crashes that are worse than the average, a link would be good to verify that claim.

T1 Terry

[Barboots]

Furthermore, an optional "advanced" course will attract a different demographic. Suggesting that the course material created a change in base driver ethic is a long bow.

Cheers, Steve