Should caravan owners undergo compulsory towing education?

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native pepper
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Re: Should caravan owners undergo compulsory towing education?

Post by native pepper »

Izabarack wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:37 am
native pepper wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:45 pm The best way to learn is to be shown then do it.
A very smart man name of David Kolb reckons there are four best ways to learn. Kolb's work has influenced the work of skills training design for a lot of years.

Iza
I was taught to drive by my father, who was a racing driver. Drove go karts first, then scramble bikes, stock cars and midgets. Only ever had one crash and that was just after getting my first car, when a fool in front decided to stop in the middle of the road and I hit them. Learnt very quickly there is massive difference between how a normal road driver reacts and how a trained racing driver reacts. Never had a crash since luckily.

Was a quartermaster in the navy and because of my cams licence, was given a defensive driving course in Singapore. Part of our job, was ships police and we had to go collect the drunks, at the time there was a lot of trouble in sth east Asia. So we were armed and loaded, had some interesting hairy times during the riots in Hong Kong and the new territories.

When it came articulated licence, spent about a month moving trucks round the yard and then doing jobs with an experienced driver, before being let out on my own.

With road trains, almost the same, spent weeks moving trucks, trailers round the yard, hitching up and collecting freight in a semi. Then collecting empty longer and longer rigs from the stock and rail yards, finally took a few short runs in bigger and bigger rigs with the boss. One day he called me in, told me to pack a kit, gave me the inventory, said see you at the end of the week and off I went for a 5 day jaunt, which turned into 8 days.

In my experience, no matter what age, properly trained drivers rarely have a crash, especially if you've been trained on a race track or under different road conditions with someone who knows what they are doing. When you are about 50m long and have 100+ tonnes trailing behind you, if you haven't been properly trained how to handle something that big, you are 95% likely to have a problem.

Having towed caravans, to me they are more unstable on a bitumen road and less controllable than a road train on a dirt track.
native pepper
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Re: Should caravan owners undergo compulsory towing education?

Post by native pepper »

native pepper wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:58 pm
Izabarack wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:37 am
native pepper wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:45 pm The best way to learn is to be shown then do it.
A very smart man name of David Kolb reckons there are four best ways to learn. Kolb's work has influenced the work of skills training design for a lot of years.

Iza
I was taught to drive by a racing driver who I worked for part time doing odd jobs. Got drive and race go karts first, then scramble bikes, stock cars and midgets. Only ever had one crash and that was just after getting my first car, when a fool in front decided to stop in the middle of the road and I hit them. Learnt very quickly there is massive difference between how a normal road driver reacts and how a trained racing driver reacts. Never had a crash since luckily.

Was a quartermaster in the navy and because of my cams licence, was given a defensive driving course in Singapore. Part of our job, was ships police and we had to go collect the drunks, at the time there was a lot of trouble in sth east Asia. So we were armed and loaded, had some interesting hairy times during the riots in Hong Kong and the new territories.

When it came articulated licence, spent about a month moving trucks round the yard and then doing jobs with an experienced driver, before being let out on my own.

With road trains, almost the same, spent weeks moving trucks, trailers round the yard, hitching up and collecting freight in a semi. Then collecting empty longer and longer rigs from the stock and rail yards, finally took a few short runs in bigger and bigger rigs with the boss. One day he called me in, told me to pack a kit, gave me the inventory, said see you at the end of the week and off I went for a 5 day jaunt, which turned into 8 days.

In my experience, no matter what age, properly trained drivers rarely have a crash, especially if you've been trained on a race track or under many different road conditions with someone who knows what they are doing. When you are about 50m long and have 100+ tonnes trailing behind you, if you haven't been properly trained how to handle something that big, you are 95% likely to have a problem.

Having towed caravans, to me they are more unstable on a bitumen road and less controllable than a road train on a dirt track.
native pepper
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Re: Should caravan owners undergo compulsory towing education?

Post by native pepper »

native pepper wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:02 pm
native pepper wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:58 pm
Izabarack wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:37 am

A very smart man name of David Kolb reckons there are four best ways to learn. Kolb's work has influenced the work of skills training design for a lot of years.

Iza
I was taught to drive by a racing driver who I worked for part time doing odd jobs. Got drive and race go karts first, then scramble bikes, stock cars and midgets. Only ever had one crash and that was just after getting my first car, when a fool in front decided to stop in the middle of the road and I hit them. Learnt very quickly there is massive difference between how a normal road driver reacts and how a trained racing driver reacts. Never had a crash since luckily.

Was a quartermaster in the navy and because of my cams licence, was given a defensive driving course in Singapore. Part of our job, was ships police and we had to go collect the drunks, at the time there was a lot of trouble in sth east Asia. So we were armed and loaded, had some interesting hairy times during the riots in Hong Kong and the new territories.

When it came articulated licence, spent about a month moving trucks round the yard and then doing jobs with an experienced driver, before being let out on my own.

With road trains, almost the same, spent weeks moving trucks, trailers round the yard, hitching up and collecting freight in a semi. Then collecting empty longer and longer rigs from the stock and rail yards, finally took a few short runs in bigger and bigger rigs with the boss. One day he called me in, told me to pack a kit, gave me the inventory, said see you at the end of the week and off I went for a 5 day jaunt, which turned into 8 days.

In my experience, no matter what age, properly trained drivers rarely have a crash, especially if you've been trained on a race track or under many different road conditions with someone who knows what they are doing. When you are about 50m long and have 100+ tonnes trailing behind you, if you haven't been properly trained how to handle something that big, you are 95% likely to have a problem.

Having towed caravans, to me they are more unstable on a bitumen road and less controllable than a road train on a dirt track.
Izabarack
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Re: Should caravan owners undergo compulsory towing education?

Post by Izabarack »

T1 Terry wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:50 am So, in your personal opinion it is unsafe to tow a van at the posted speed limit? ...
I guess you have not towed a van around much in Queensland. The road from Kilcoy to Esk to the west of Wivenhoe dam has stretches of 100 K posted road that are probably dangerous at anything over 80 KPH. Posted limits are just that, limits. Any competent driver makes some decisions based on conditions as well as self-assessed skill levels. The self assessment is often the problem. Lots of research comes up with the result that 85% plus of drivers tick the "above average" box.
T1 Terry wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:50 am ..., a suitably skilled driver doesn't need to think about what actions to take, it should have become instinctive as the knowledge required should be stored in the cerebral cortex, .......
Overlearned behaviours only become automatic through repeated trigger and response practice of a specific context. Those behaviours only become developed as a skill level following a process of closer and closer successive approximations. Some Numpty decided, in Queensland, that 100 hours behind the wheel (assuming honest recording and reporting) is sufficient for a learner driver to develop suitable skills to pass the behavioural skills portion of a test for a driver's license. At that point, the newly licensed driver is arguably at the third stage of a Conscious Competency model understanding of the development of a skill and is suitably skilled to drive him or herself around without killing self or others, usually.

How or where do you expect any driver to practice, to an automatic response level, dealing with a catastrophic blowout of a tyre on a marginally stable 23 foot caravan travelling at 110KPH on uneven tarmac? Some people believe this can be done, the practice bit, in a VR environment using a Serious Game frame, somewhat like using a flight simulator to train pilots. This kind of work is being done right now for the mining industry and if successful, will have flow on implications for lower level skill development situations like driver training.

Iza
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Re: Should caravan owners undergo compulsory towing education?

Post by SteveW »

Izabarack wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:13 pm
T1 Terry wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:50 am So, in your personal opinion it is unsafe to tow a van at the posted speed limit? ...
I guess you have not towed a van around much in Queensland. The road from Kilcoy to Esk to the west of Wivenhoe dam has stretches of 100 K posted road that are probably dangerous at anything over 80 KPH. Posted limits are just that, limits. Any competent driver makes some decisions based on conditions as well as self-assessed skill levels. The self assessment is often the problem. Lots of research comes up with the result that 85% plus of drivers tick the "above average" box.
T1 Terry wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:50 am ..., a suitably skilled driver doesn't need to think about what actions to take, it should have become instinctive as the knowledge required should be stored in the cerebral cortex, .......
Overlearned behaviours only become automatic through repeated trigger and response practice of a specific context. Those behaviours only become developed as a skill level following a process of closer and closer successive approximations. Some Numpty decided, in Queensland, that 100 hours behind the wheel (assuming honest recording and reporting) is sufficient for a learner driver to develop suitable skills to pass the behavioural skills portion of a test for a driver's license. At that point, the newly licensed driver is arguably at the third stage of a Conscious Competency model understanding of the development of a skill and is suitably skilled to drive him or herself around without killing self or others, usually.

How or where do you expect any driver to practice, to an automatic response level, dealing with a catastrophic blowout of a tyre on a marginally stable 23 foot caravan travelling at 110KPH on uneven tarmac? Some people believe this can be done, the practice bit, in a VR environment using a Serious Game frame, somewhat like using a flight simulator to train pilots. This kind of work is being done right now for the mining industry and if successful, will have flow on implications for lower level skill development situations like driver training.

Iza
This response overlooks that proper training includes driving to the prevailing conditions.
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Re: Should caravan owners undergo compulsory towing education?

Post by T1 Terry »

on a marginally stable 23 foot caravan
Iza, the more you post the more it appears you are saying caravans in general are not really stable and it takes very little to make them unstable and extremely difficult to control. Then on the other hand you hear from caravan owners who had lost a wheel and didn't know it for quite some time..... so which party are we to believe?
As far as driving to the conditions, that is part of the reflex action learning, driving within the conditions you feel fully in control. I doubt anyone is suggesting the 110km/h sign refers to blinding rain or dense fog and they are all driving conditions the average driver will face quite often in their driving life. I do believe that someone who has actually passed an advanced driving course has learnt better vehicle control than someone who hasn't had that type of experience, but to suggest this causes the driver to drive faster than they are fully in control is not something you could accurately access, could it be that they drive faster than you would feel in control and it is you that feel you are the better skilled driver, much like those who tick the box "above average" when it comes to skill level?
In all honesty, unless those skills are put to the test and meet a qualifying standard all drivers should be placed in the "Below average" category until they actually prove they are above that level. that about brings us back to the topic heading, maybe not compulsory towing education but certainly compulsory competence testing and towing anything bigger than a box trailer requires that endorsement on their licence. As I've said before, why is it that a truck and trailer needs a licenced operator yet a vehicle weighing around the 4.5 tonne loaded towing a van 3.5 tonne or more only requires a car licence and no proof they have any more skill than mum driving the little 4 cyl shopping trolley? in reality, a lot of city bound folk drive very little between holiday breaks, yet they are licenced to drive that rig I mentioned a few lines back, are you saying that is the way it should be?

T1 Terry
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Re: Should caravan owners undergo compulsory towing education?

Post by Izabarack »

T1 Terry wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:17 pm ....... they actually learnt to drive better
Terry, do you know how to quantify a Behavioural Skills deficit? Or a Knowledge deficit? Or an Attitude deficit? Do you have any knowledge or experience of how to do a Training (education?) Needs Analysis (TNA)? Do you have any knowledge or experience of evaluating the results of a skills training course? How would you go about measuring the improvement from P Plate to someone who has "learnt to drive better"? Do you have any knowledge or experience of how to evaluate Recognition of Prior Learning (RPL)? Especially in regards to assessing experience against a curriculum?

As said earlier, until someone specifies what is missing, and shows a causal link to required behaviour in those towing caravans, any argument for Compulsory education is unsupported.

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Re: Should caravan owners undergo compulsory towing education?

Post by SteveW »

Knowing the art of teaching according to modern research and teaching methods does not necessarily equate to good skills. I put forward the case of simple multiplication, addition and subtraction. Modern teaching has failed our grandchildren miserably - they can't work out how much change to give at a supermarket.

Many here will have been put through "professional training" on many subjects. It's not to say that academic knowledge is not useful, however, heavy vehicle driving training still relies on a trainer passing on the classroom knowledge, showing you how to do it, sitting with you while you do it, then testing to ensure you can really do it. It's not too onerous and doesn't take a lot of time.

As has been pointed out, a car licence allows a driver in up to a 4.4 tonne vehicle towing the most unstable articulated trailer that can, in some States, weigh more than the towing vehicle (a combined mass of possibly 10 tonne). A driver with a 2 tonne van, but one that has a Gross Vehicle Mass of only 4.5 tonne (not articulated) requires an appropriate truck licence. That is the point.
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Re: Should caravan owners undergo compulsory towing education?

Post by BernieQ2 »

I didn't do a class room test to gain my HC licence , I worked for a local truck company for "FREE" for a month to gain the art of backing a HC trailer .
I already held a HR licence .
The normal driver sat beside me (he was getting paid) for the month .
Done the driving test and bingo I had my licence .
I ended up getting a job with the company...boss thought I was smart in what I done to gain the licence .
I was at the time between jobs so just my time was the cost , not what driving schools charge .
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Re: Should caravan owners undergo compulsory towing education?

Post by T1 Terry »

Izabarack wrote: Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:54 am
T1 Terry wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:17 pm ....... they actually learnt to drive better
Terry, do you know how to quantify a Behavioural Skills deficit? Or a Knowledge deficit? Or an Attitude deficit? Do you have any knowledge or experience of how to do a Training (education?) Needs Analysis (TNA)? Do you have any knowledge or experience of evaluating the results of a skills training course? How would you go about measuring the improvement from P Plate to someone who has "learnt to drive better"? Do you have any knowledge or experience of how to evaluate Recognition of Prior Learning (RPL)? Especially in regards to assessing experience against a curriculum?

As said earlier, until someone specifies what is missing, and shows a causal link to required behaviour in those towing caravans, any argument for Compulsory education is unsupported.

Iza
Yes, but I didn't get a T shirt, just the paperwork to hang on the wall or put with all the others in the filing cabinet, I chose the latter. I seriously believe in the "qualified" or "not yet qualified" assessment out come method, there is no such thing as nearly qualified in any skill set and that includes driving equipment so I see no reason why towing a combination that constitutes a heavy vehicle by definition of combined weight should be any different, can you?

T1 Terry
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