Lithium Batteries, who has them?

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T1 Terry
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?

Post by T1 Terry »

bagmaker wrote:Is the vent a pressure type, ie, will it only vent if the internal pressure builds?
And will it allow gas to come in again when the pressures reverse?

Thinking along the lines of mounting, perhaps the practice of sideways constraint of the cell that has been advocated is a bad thing?
If each cell were allowed to expand and contract due to thermal variance- even when overcharged- then it wouldnt suck oxygen back in when it cooled down again.

again, just musing
:lol: The topic of my next post.
Prismatic cells have plastic casings that can withstand 150*C before it lets go under the pressure from the boiling electrolyte inside, the pressure relief valve lets go at ????? but well before the plastic case ruptures. It's a one way valve, but once a of volume of gas at high pressure had blasted through it I doubt it's one way integrity would remain.
The important part to keep in mind, the plastic case becomes pliable when heated, so the pressure will stretch the plastic case in any direction it can and this heating/stretching can occur during extremes in voltage at either end of the charge cycle. If the internal temp exceeds 70*C (not the case temp) the first of the volatile liquids will start to gas and this increases the internal pressure. The plastic is soft enough at this temp to stretch and allow the cases to swell. Holding a cell above 3.45v or below 2.8v for an extended period will cause the internals and particularly the electrolyte to heat up, the further past these extremes the shorter the time damage will start to occur, these extremes are voltage, not current rates in or out of the cell, something many BMS manufacturers and other "knowledgeable" people simply don't understand for some reason or another. Just past these extremes and/or for very short periods reduces the heating period so natural cooling can occur so little or no damage is done.
What does happen is a loss of capacity if the case swells and this links back to something I mentioned in an earlier post, the electrolyte starvation in the cell. If the cases are allowed to swell the active plates are no longer held in contact with the separator material so the electrolyte can drain away to the lowest possible level within the cell. No electrolyte contact between the active plates results in no ion exchange, so now only the area of the plates at the bottom of the cell are in contact with the electrolyte. If that equals only the lower 10% of the cell then you will only get the use of 10% of the cell function. In other words, the 100Ah cell now has only 10Ah of it capacity functioning.
The good news is, return the case to it's original shape with the active plates again in contact with the separator so the electrolyte contacts all the plate surfaces and the capacity returns. Boil the electrolyte so it vents out of pressure relief valve and it's gone. Just like letting the smoke out of electronic equipment, you can't put it back in, when you have lost the electrolyte the cell will no longer function.
How to work with this issue..... that's for another day ;) :lol:

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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?

Post by SteveW »

BLEVE - Boiling Liquid Evaporative Explosion. Google or Youtube BLEVE
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?

Post by homeless »

Your nearly there but a bit different to the explanation I got when I did my masters ticket many years ago.
you missed out a letter V
check this out for a example but I have not seen this with a lithium battery. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf3WKTwHpIU
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?

Post by SteveW »

SteveW wrote:BLEVE - Boiling Liquid EVaporative Explosion. Google or Youtube BLEVE
Does that fix it? :)
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?

Post by homeless »

Boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?

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You'll make a good wife! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?

Post by T1 Terry »

It can happen with LiFep04 batteries as well if you choose a brand that actually has a plug in place of the pressure relief valve, but even a cell with a pressure relief valve will burst, but not explode http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p21iZVFHEZk The fact the cell could continue to push current into a dead short for 13 mins says a lot about just how tough these cells are, and also why fuses are a must :twisted:

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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?

Post by Col49 »

Just joined this forum, I have installed a 12 volt x200 aH system thanks to Terry, I have to install more solar to support my using the 240 volt toaster every morning.
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?

Post by campingnut »

Thanks Terry for starting this thread -I missed joining your group last February. Im looking at buying batteries now. I think you might have answered this but do I understand correctly that its best building a a 12volt 400 a/h unit with 8 x 50a/h cells instead of 4 x 100a/h cells? Thanks again -Is the inverter and charger from your charging battery so that your alternator doesnt melt running on Max till the batteries are full?
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Re: Lithium Batteries, who has them?

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campingnut wrote:Thanks Terry for starting this thread -I missed joining your group last February. Im looking at buying batteries now. I think you might have answered this but do I understand correctly that its best building a a 12volt 400 a/h unit with 8 x 50a/h cells instead of 4 x 100a/h cells? Thanks again -Is the inverter and charger from your charging battery so that your alternator doesnt melt running on Max till the batteries are full?
The cells are 3.2v nom. each, so the range is from 3.4v full to 3.0v empty, so it take 4 cells to make 12v. If you connect 4 x 100Ah 3.2v cells in parallel, + to + and - to - you end up with 400Ah @ 3.2v nom. and this is still classed as a cell, just built from 4 smaller units, if you build 4 of these 400Ah cells, ea 3.2v nom. and connect them is series, + to - in the next group, the voltages adds together, so 3.2v nom. x 4 becomes 12.8v nom. or a 400Ah 12v battery. Does that make sense?

You are correct about the inverter/charger being for reducing the alternator load.... if the start battery chargers to better than 14v, but if it's a later model unit, the battery only gets to 14v for a few mins, than drops back to around 13.2v, and that won't recharge even a lithium battery, so the inverter/charger system gives a charge current you can rely on to continue till the house battery is charged. It's a DC to DC charger made up out of gear you probably already have or gear you could get a double use from if a 3 way battery switch was added into the inverter supply line.
Many DC to DC chargers over heat when used with lithium batteries as the load is constant till the lithium battery is fully charged, they were designed for lead acid batteries which taper the charge current they can accept fairly early in the charging sequence, so the load isn't as high on the DC to DC charger over a long period. Generally a 20 amp unit can keep up if it has plenty of air flow around it, but much more than that and they start to self protect by limiting the charge current, or the smoke comes out and they won't play the game any longer. In general, an inverter has a fan and designed to run for a long period close to it max operating range, a 40 amp charger will want around 600w from an inverter, so a 1000w or larger inverter is the best choice and is big enough to be useful when run from the house battery as well. A good 40 amp charger will have enough cooling to run at it's 40 amps continuously, cheaper ones don't, so they need a second fan added or their output current reduced to around 35 amps or less so they will run continuous. Again, both units will require plenty of space around them for cooling, this includes under the charger, as many have components that use the base as a heat sink as well, so not bolted down tight on the shag pile carpet. if you can get you fingers under it then air can get under it to keep it cool. The cheapy evil bay 40 amp charger is typical as far as needing the second fan or the current dialled back and air space under it, the cheapy 1000w evil bay inverters seem to be ok as far as cooling goes.
I hope that answered the question without going over board, I do tend to prattle on a bit :lol:

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