Lithium Again.

[nut17]

This sounds way too good to be true. I will be interested in your comments Terry.

https://www.trademe.co.nz/a.asp?id=2458 ... ec607c017e

This auction will expire tomorrow so have copied the text from the auction site below. This is the second unit this seller has listed over the last month. There has been some discussion on my NZ forum https://nzmotorhome.co.nz/forum/viewtop ... 50&t=19884

"Buy Now" price is NZ$988.00

Description
Questions & answers
This is the latest generation of 12v 270ah lithium iron phosphate battery(liFePO4). The latest catl cell is used. This is also the safest lithium iron phosphate battery in the world.
5 years warranty.
This deep cycle liFePO4 battery is 12v 270ah. Up to 3kw output.
Deep cycle next generation lithium battery in conventional sizes is finally here! Providing higher energy density than their lead acid counterparts with an added bonus of massive weight saving.
Suitable for RVs, solar energy storage, yachts, automobiles, water pumps. this liFePO4 battery can be replaced directly with the original battery. The circuit does not need to be modified.

This battery is resistant to low temperatures and can work normally in - 37 C.

Our LiFePO4 deep cycle batteries offer high cycle life, higher max discharge rate and can be recharged much faster than lead acid batteries. This range of LiFePO4 deep cycle all include built in battery management system (BMS). The BMS will protect the internal cells from over discharge, over charge and short circuit protection. Providing much higher level of protection around thermal runaway as well as increasing the overall life of the battery.

This liFePO4 battery uses a stainless steel case, which is sturdy and waterproof. This battery is highly safe and supports high-current charging without thermal runaway and fire. It is particularly safe.

reach 80% 80,000 deep cycles times.
bms protection system.
Built-in voltmeter can display voltage at any time.
Automatic overload protection.
Install independent 3A equalizer to support high current automatic equalization.
short circuit protection.
Continuous discharge current reaches 180 amps. Can be used for car, truck engine start, discharge CCA up to 2000cca
over-discharge protection
overcharge protection


Voltage: 12V
Capacity: 270Ah
Charge voltage: 13.6-14.9V
Float voltage: 13.6-13.8V
Cut-Off Voltage: 10.8V.
LiFePO4 (LFP) chemistry
Discharge operating Temp : -37 to 65 C
weight:28kg
Please click here to ask a question
Shipping options
Auckland (Excl Waiheke Island & Others)$20.00
Outer Auckland$20.00
North island NON RURAL$20.00
North island RURAL$30.00
South island NON RURAL$30.00
South island RURAL$35.00
Store allows pick-ups
Store location: Auckland City, Auckland, NZ


Cheers and "Merry Christmas" Chris

[T1 Terry]

This sounds way too good to be true. I will be interested in your comments Terry.

https://www.trademe.co.nz/a.asp?id=2458 ... ec607c017e

This auction will expire tomorrow so have copied the text from the auction site below. This is the second unit this seller has listed over the last month. There has been some discussion on my NZ forum https://nzmotorhome.co.nz/forum/viewtop ... 50&t=19884

"Buy Now" price is NZ$988.00

Description
Questions & answers
This is the latest generation of 12v 270ah lithium iron phosphate battery(liFePO4). The latest catl cell is used. This is also the safest lithium iron phosphate battery in the world.
5 years warranty.
This deep cycle liFePO4 battery is 12v 270ah. Up to 3kw output.
Deep cycle next generation lithium battery in conventional sizes is finally here! Providing higher energy density than their lead acid counterparts with an added bonus of massive weight saving.
Suitable for RVs, solar energy storage, yachts, automobiles, water pumps. this liFePO4 battery can be replaced directly with the original battery. The circuit does not need to be modified.

This battery is resistant to low temperatures and can work normally in - 37 C.

Our LiFePO4 deep cycle batteries offer high cycle life, higher max discharge rate and can be recharged much faster than lead acid batteries. This range of LiFePO4 deep cycle all include built in battery management system (BMS). The BMS will protect the internal cells from over discharge, over charge and short circuit protection. Providing much higher level of protection around thermal runaway as well as increasing the overall life of the battery.

This liFePO4 battery uses a stainless steel case, which is sturdy and waterproof. This battery is highly safe and supports high-current charging without thermal runaway and fire. It is particularly safe.

reach 80% 80,000 deep cycles times.
bms protection system.
Built-in voltmeter can display voltage at any time.
Automatic overload protection.
Install independent 3A equalizer to support high current automatic equalization.
short circuit protection.
Continuous discharge current reaches 180 amps. Can be used for car, truck engine start, discharge CCA up to 2000cca
over-discharge protection
overcharge protection


Voltage: 12V
Capacity: 270Ah
Charge voltage: 13.6-14.9V
Float voltage: 13.6-13.8V
Cut-Off Voltage: 10.8V.
LiFePO4 (LFP) chemistry
Discharge operating Temp : -37 to 65 C
weight:28kg
Please click here to ask a question
Shipping options
Auckland (Excl Waiheke Island & Others)$20.00
Outer Auckland$20.00
North island NON RURAL$20.00
North island RURAL$30.00
South island NON RURAL$30.00
South island RURAL$35.00
Store allows pick-ups
Store location: Auckland City, Auckland, NZ


Cheers and "Merry Christmas" Chris

A couple of things say this is B/S wrapped in technospeak. 100Ah @ 0.5CA discharge rate weighs min of 16kg. These batteries claim to have a stainless steel case so that would make them even heavier. This means a genuine 250Ah LiFePo4 battery would weigh at least 40kg, this thing weighs 28kg.
The claim is the battery can handle -37*C and still operate as normal ... this is total B/S unless it was built with a special electrolyte mix, but then it wouldn't be able to handle the 65*C. At house battery discharge rates of 50 amps per 100Ah capacity, the operating range is 0*C to 60*C for LiFeP04 chemistry and -20*C to 65*C for LYP chemistry cells. The cell won't be destroyed at -37*C, but you can't attempt to discharge or recharge at anything more than a trickle rate at those temperatures, maybe 10 amps per 100Ah max, so not a normal LiFeP04 charge or discharge rate.
The cases are claimed to be stainless steel, this one is a real scary item. The metal cases develop a voltage and this needs to be isolated from any other metal surface that could also have a voltage or tied to the battery negative. A member of the local AEVA had his Prius burn to the ground due to the insulation between the cells and the body failing. The arc produced burnt a hole through the aluminium battery tray, it was that much of a short circuit.
The charging upper voltage of 14.9v is to make it look like they are lead acid drop in replacements, but 14.9v would equal 3.75v per cell in a perfectly balanced 12v battery. Anyone who is experienced with using lithium batteries knows as soon as the cell voltage goes over 3.6v it starts to rapidly run away. All the cells reaching 3.6v at the same time, every time, is just never going to happen, to reach 3.75v all at the same time, yeah right .... The claim it can shift 3 amps from cell to cell isn't much use if the charge rate is higher than 3 amps, one cell will run away to the point of destruction.

Simply by weight, this battery would be less than a genuine 170Ah @ 12v, probably more likely a 150Ah battery. The continuous 180 amp discharge would be a little more than a 1C discharge rate if it was a 170Ah battery, a 1.2CA discharge rate for a 150Ah battery, both well within the capabilities of any decent LiFeP04 cell or battery.

In reality, this battery is $6.50 per AH @ 12v, can not have any of the cell links cleaned during its service life, nor can it have any individual cell replaced if needed. A replacement 160Ah Winston cell would be about $320, not $988 if a cell failed resulting in the whole battery headed for the rubbish bin.

T1 Terry

[Vik351]

More bad news ...

https://signup.moneymorning.com.au/X920 ... tFFN-zUGbQ

vik...

[Noggins]

Lot of speculation in that report without naming the "NEW Power Source"
But with 500 ( as stated ) companies in China making electric vehicles I feel it will be lithium for a while yet.

Seem like a lot of hype to get their book and then buy up their mates shares .


Ron ( the cynic )

[Busman]

It's cobalt, and it is going to come out of the ocean.
The greenies are turning themselves inside out trying to work out how they can have their electric vehicles to save the planet, while they need the cobalt from under the sea to make all those batteries.
Trial mining machines 1/100 th of projected size are already stirring up the silt.
Not long before mother earth gets rids of it's biggest pest, humans !

[native pepper]

There will always be scammers and rip off merchants in business, especially when dealing with new in demand technology.

As for the decline of lithium for Ev's, the next big thing may be aluminium air batteries. It's been proven for years, but the requirements to attain it properly involve very toxic materials and waste. There are reports of this technology is coming of age and this article explains why it may happen very soon.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ng-it.html

There are always claims that can't be sustained, in my opinion, hydrogen fuel is one, until they can get it to the stage where you can actually put water into your fuel tank and drive off, it will always be as expensive as fossil fuels.

Super capacitors will become the norm in Ev's, along with lithium and other energy storage technologies. Super capacitors will be used for capturing energy fast, then feeding it to the main storage. This will make recharging much faster and also increase range a lot. Regenerative braking, only works at very low efficiency rates, because the huge amount of energy generated can't be absorbed by the lithium cells in such a short time. Super capacitors can capture all the energy and then feed that into the lithium cells over a longer period, and whilst driving along. In fact reckon you could extend the life of lifepo4 by feeding them from super capacitors, would make them much more efficient and mean you could recharge within a couple of minutes and then extent your range by how you drive the vehicle, by just using your re gen braking most of the time.

Had a drive in a Hyundai kona the other week and drove it myself. Have to say, it was amazing and really made me want an Ev as soon as possible. Not much different to driving and old semi, where you used the trailer brakes more than the prime mover brakes and using the kona re gen paddles for braking was a joy, watching the range grow each time. Extremely quiet car, unbelievable acceleration and so smooth it's almost unnerving. The owner is a lady who was going to buy a tesla and had a deposit on one, then she tried the kona and bought it on the spot, just love the sunroof.

[T1 Terry]

Cobalt has a rather murky path to the processing plant and appears to be an off spin from copper mining. Lithium cobalt batteries are just one of those hand grenade lithium mixes that will die off as safer compounds become cheaper.
Aluminium air batteries are a bit deceptive in name, much like the Aquion Salt Water battery - the electrolyte is a mixer of salts, just not sea water. The aluminium air battery actually requires the oxygen from air, about 19% by volume is you want the pure stuff that these batteries need, but all the other damaging compounds that make up the other 81% need to be kept away. To make the battery rechargeable rather than just a primary cell battery, a very complex electrolyte is required and cycle life is still the biggest issue. To be acceptable to the general public, the battery will need to have a cycle life about as long as the cycle life of the car itself, around 7 yrs. To allow for more than one recharge per day on the rare occasion a long distance is travelled, that would be a min of 3,000 cycles and still retain 80% of the original capacity. Aluminium air isn't anywhere in the ball park yet.
The deceptive mileage available is another point, you can't use the theoretical range of an aluminium air primary battery to project the range of a rechargeable aluminium air battery. I mentioned theoretical because although the aluminium air primary battery starts out strong, as the aluminium is eaten away and the surface coated with oxides, the output drops, so the last half of the battery wold not perform like the fist half, or even the first quarter like the second quarter, so it would be a progressive die off in performance and ability to actually keep the vehicle moving, starting off from the standstill repeatedly would reduce the effective range even further.
As has already been mentioned, big name companies are shifting from coal and oil to lithium and copper mining, they aren't idiots and wouldn't be pulling out of a market that had a long profit making future to a loss making venture with big start up costs but no future potential.

As far as hydrogen as a fuel, hopeless in an internal combustion engine because of the inefficiencies and byproduct issues with metal embrittlement, but maybe a future for fuel cells. Either carried in ammonia or LNG and an onboard separating system, a bit bulky for the average car but maybe for the light truck and heavy vehicle industry. The issue is getting the electricity generation level up high enough to equal the discharge capacity of a lithium ion battery yet remaining small enough and light enough to compete on the open market.


As far as super capacitors, far too lossy and can not be rapidly charged from empty but rather they can moved power in and out through their safe range. Ultra capacitor are for high power use but require liquid nitrogen for cooling, not suitable from a transportable power storage solution.
As far as capacitors improving the cycle life of lithium ion cells, already been disproven years ago. The idea worked for lead acid batteries, but lithium batteries can be pulse charged at 20 times their advertised capacity, 2000 amps into a 100Ah battery. The average EV battery is now around the 450vdc up to around the 750vdc mark, even a 100 amp regen would be 45kW of braking for the 450vdc battery powered vehicle and a Winston LYP cell can handle 5CA short term charging. A 100Ah 450vdc battery could handle 225kW of regen, simply not achievable due to traction and passenger comfort issues.

T1 Terry

[native pepper]

Not going to argue with you Terry you know to much for me to address the technical side of things. But super/ultra capacitors are already in EV's and the linked articles will show where they are at and where they are headed and there are many others that put the super capacitor as the next thing in energy storage, along with smaller solid state lithium. Solid state batteries and capacitors using graphene in them, will revolutionise the EV and energy storage industries, unless they come up with something better than graphene. Doubt that will happen, graphene is cheaply derived from seed oils and other things, it's the strongest material we know, is also the greatest conductor, they are already experimenting with it in lithium, solid state and capacitors.

This will reduce weight, the need for cooling system and price. Mt late mate always said, never dismiss anything until it's fully proven one way or the other. He claimed more than a decade ago that capacitors and graphene were the things which would drive the next generation of energy use and storage and he was working in that direction and made some excellent experiments work. You can even make graphene capacitors in your home, link is attached.

The number of people who ridiculed him and me, was large, especially the supposed qualified knowledgeable ones. Yet all he discovered and experimented with, has come to be and it will be the same with capacitors and graphene. If he were still around, bet he would be experimenting with things that most wouldn't even have heard of or envisaged. Just glad I knew someone who always looked ahead and worked ahead, as I do, but in a more mundane ways compared to slowhands.

Agree with you in regard to air/aluminium, but haven't dismissed it, even if it doesn't work and hope it doesn't, otherwise it will mean vehicle energy will be controlled by the same morons as now. But what comes out of it technologically, will drive other inventions because of the knowledge gained and that could mean things like, non corroding aluminum, supper strong fire proof aluminium etc.

I have a lith-ion 21 year old battery in my video camera, it still works excellently but has lost some of it's capacity. Thought it had died because it was going flat rather than maintain its energy, so bought a new one which has 3 times the capacity. However being as curious as I am, put the old battery on the charger and it worked. In the past had left the battery in the camera, so decided to see if that would make a difference by taking it off the camera when not using it. That was about a year ago and the battery still has the charge to drive the camera and the camera says it is fully charged. When thinking about it, realised had never used the camera until the battery went flat, always put it on the charger when stopped recording, that way it was always ready to go and it's still going after 21 years. but hadn't used it for a couple of years and it went flat. In my mind, lithium are proven for 20 years treated right and it will be interesting to see how long they actually last. Reckon about 25 years for decent capacity, after than all down hill, but we will see in 4 years time with my camera, will continue to use the old battery to see it's degradation.

These links are interesting, if you haven't seen them, as is "inside ev's" where the advancement in ev technology is rapid and includes super capacitors.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/billrobers ... 674f742767

https://www.androidauthority.com/solid- ... ry-978899/

https://news.mit.edu/2019/enriching-sol ... p-mit-0711

https://westfieldavs.com/graphene-supercapacitor/

https://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a ... capacitor/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar3C5JgzhgE

[Greynomad]

While surfing the internet last night, I came across a page (can’t recall where) which said some company, in league with a university research department, is working on converting an aeroplane to electric power!

[BernieQ2]

All ready done and flying. Ray .
Bernie