Fuel prices today in the USA

[T1 Terry]

I think we will eventually move to a system similar to NZ, where you buy mileage for your diesel. That womt be hard to manage with electric vehicles, and will make it harder for the fuel companies to rip you off

That was the old road tax charged on truckies that sparked the Razor Back road blockade to have it abolished. It might work in NZ where you can near see every coast if you stand on a soapbox in the middle, but 'stralya is a big place so how could they police it?

Hopefully with some difficulty ! I had a diesel landrover in the mid 80s that I never paid mileage on. Previous owner didnt either. Probably more difficult these days to get away with it. Regardless, its a way off yet, but once electric trucks become viable, then I am sure something similar will happen

Battery hybrid cars will be the norm within 5 yrs because neither diesel or petrol powered on their own can meet the last lot of emission requirements and there are 2 more already enacted to come that are even more stringent. Because all the manufacturers cheated with the last lot of emission requirements govt around the world thought they could just write regulations and the engine manufacturers would build engines to suit. Now that has proven not to be the case and the requirements are already law the only way to go is hybrid electric so the vehicle can meet the acceleration requirements of both design rules and public expectations with the diesel/petrol engine being not much more than a genset to recharge the battery pack on longer trips. Once the roll out of fast recharging stations is in full swing the genset will be gradually phased out and replaced with bigger battery packs and stronger electric motors.
The hybrid electric truck is already here, has been for over 10 yrs. Alison make a hybrid drive auto transmission and Isuzu were the first to have a hybrid drive via the gearbox PTO. Once the hybrid turbine/electric prime mover hits the market the diesel engine will rapidly disappear as the primary power plant for big trucks. They are way to heavy and use way too much fuel already with serious drive line issues so to increase the power output further to match the turbine/electric drive would be a bridge too far that is not likely to ever be crossed. The big mining equipment has been diesel electric for a long time now, rail locomotives have been that way since they replaced the steam engines so none of it is new, just technology has finally caught up to make battery power viable as the main fuel storage and secondary power plants to recharge the battery as required.
I'm guessing GSP sensors will track all heavy vehicle movements by then so that can be easily policed, but the family car?

T1 Terry

[2Smiths]

That was the old road tax charged on truckies that sparked the Razor Back road blockade to have it abolished. It might work in NZ where you can near see every coast if you stand on a soapbox in the middle, but 'stralya is a big place so how could they police it?

Hopefully with some difficulty ! I had a diesel landrover in the mid 80s that I never paid mileage on. Previous owner didnt either. Probably more difficult these days to get away with it. Regardless, its a way off yet, but once electric trucks become viable, then I am sure something similar will happen

Battery hybrid cars will be the norm within 5 yrs because neither diesel or petrol powered on their own can meet the last lot of emission requirements and there are 2 more already enacted to come that are even more stringent. Because all the manufacturers cheated with the last lot of emission requirements govt around the world thought they could just write regulations and the engine manufacturers would build engines to suit. Now that has proven not to be the case and the requirements are already law the only way to go is hybrid electric so the vehicle can meet the acceleration requirements of both design rules and public expectations with the diesel/petrol engine being not much more than a genset to recharge the battery pack on longer trips. Once the roll out of fast recharging stations is in full swing the genset will be gradually phased out and replaced with bigger battery packs and stronger electric motors.
The hybrid electric truck is already here, has been for over 10 yrs. Alison make a hybrid drive auto transmission and Isuzu were the first to have a hybrid drive via the gearbox PTO. Once the hybrid turbine/electric prime mover hits the market the diesel engine will rapidly disappear as the primary power plant for big trucks. They are way to heavy and use way too much fuel already with serious drive line issues so to increase the power output further to match the turbine/electric drive would be a bridge too far that is not likely to ever be crossed. The big mining equipment has been diesel electric for a long time now, rail locomotives have been that way since they replaced the steam engines so none of it is new, just technology has finally caught up to make battery power viable as the main fuel storage and secondary power plants to recharge the battery as required.
I'm guessing GSP sensors will track all heavy vehicle movements by then so that can be easily policed, but the family car?

T1 Terry

Hmmm...Makes one wonder whether buying a diesel motorhome now would be the wisest use of one's money...

If the above (quoted) holds true, are a pile of people out there going to be stuck with something they can't sell in a few years, as it has become too expensive - via Govt. legislation/interference - to run...?

[Newcastle George]

I would like to know where, when and how all the vehicles currently on the roads and used car lots are going to be dumped. The car I drive now is 18yo and look forward to Julie's 1YO car to last just as long.

George

[native pepper]

I haven't paid for fuel for decades, other than a few litres for starting fuel every couple of weeks when I run out of biodiesel and the fuel I run on, emits more than 80% less emissions than diesel and we travel well over 50000klms each year. If we switched every diesel engine to seed oils during the transition to electric, we'd be able to reduce fuel cost by well over 50% and improve the environment as seed oils are good for the environment. We'd also boost farming and rural industry, when the transition to electric for big rigs and machinery happens, we can use the seed oils for the production of graphene and all other lubricants.

Diesel in Tas at the moment is around $1.61lt and petrol about the same. We have less then 20 days of fuel stocks in Aus and are totally reliant on imported fuel, don't think there are any refineries operating in Aus at the moment. They were going to build one in Queensland in 2015, but the cost was so high, think they decided against it, haven't read anything new since the proposed announcement.

[2Smiths]

I haven't paid for fuel for decades, other than a few litres for starting fuel every couple of weeks when I run out of biodiesel and the fuel I run on, emits more than 80% less emissions than diesel and we travel well over 50000klms each year. If we switched every diesel engine to seed oils during the transition to electric, we'd be able to reduce fuel cost by well over 50% and improve the environment as seed oils are good for the environment. We'd also boost farming and rural industry, when the transition to electric for big rigs and machinery happens, we can use the seed oils for the production of graphene and all other lubricants.

Diesel in Tas at the moment is around $1.61lt and petrol about the same. We have less then 20 days of fuel stocks in Aus and are totally reliant on imported fuel, don't think there are any refineries operating in Aus at the moment. They were going to build one in Queensland in 2015, but the cost was so high, think they decided against it, haven't read anything new since the proposed announcement.

So...where do you obtain biodiesel?

I guess what I'm asking is:

1) How "available" is it?

2) On a stock standard turbo-diesel engine, what - if any - mods need to be done to run biodiesel?

3) Are there other trade-offs, such as worse fuel economy/less power and torque?

I for one would love to travel the country paying minimal $ for fuel...(Who wouldn't). But I feel there has to be a catch somewhere...

[BruceS]

Be very careful using old fish'n'chip oil!!
If done properly it might be OK but done in the backyard without knowing the correct procedure can result in a yard full of worthless engines. Ask how I know? My mate found out the hard way!!
Following him down the road nearly made me sick too. Smell of burning cooking oil wasn't that nice.
His neighbour wasn't that keen on him leaving early in the morning after warming up his engine first!!!

[native pepper]

So...where do you obtain biodiesel?

I guess what I'm asking is:

1) How "available" is it?

2) On a stock standard turbo-diesel engine, what - if any - mods need to be done to run biodiesel?

3) Are there other trade-offs, such as worse fuel economy/less power and torque?

I for one would love to travel the country paying minimal $ for fuel...(Who wouldn't). But I feel there has to be a catch somewhere...

Make my own biodiesel, as many others do, don't know where you can get it. I make it out of the dregs from my centrifuge, don't make a lot as it only needs a couple of litres for starting and stopping at the end of the day. Have 3 turbo engines running on it, all Di engines, along with tractors lister genny and a common rail 671gm which drives my boat. The bus has an extra fuel tank for starting, which fill with dino when it gets low and run out of BD.

To run an engine properly, the oil has to be filtered (or centrifuged) and you need a heat exchanger to heat the oil before going into the engine. It's also best to use a throw away inline filter, to catch anything that gets past the filtering, depending on the engine, get about 1000klm from a throw away.

Been running things on seed oils since the late 1970's, never had a problem other than blocked throw away filters and the smell is either a BBQ, or from Indian restaurants, curry. Not an unpleasant smell at all, according to those who experience it, as for power lose, no difference really and no difference in torque output.

Engines last longer as the oil is a great lubricator and diesel is not. Sold a series 60 2h which had done over 650000klms on oil and it still went like a charm. Rebuilt a 12ht series 60 at 520000klms, as it was down on power, turned out it was the new turbo I'd put on that was faulty, still have it and it flies. My series 80 1htd had done just over 300000klms when got it because the engine was stuffed, so rebuilt it and now it has done over 250000klms on oil and absolutely flies along. Engines tend to run cooler on seed oil for some reason, may have to do with the low evaporation point of fossil fuels, but never gone into it.

From my experience, those that have problems, think they can just put in oil and off they go, don't filter the oil properly, or think they don't have to use inline filters, a push pump, or a HE. There is always some fats left over in the oil and some water, unless you use new oil. There is a process I've used which takes out all the fats and water content making the oil very thin, but you need to bring the oil to boiling to achieve that and without specific equipment, it can be dangerous as seed oils have a very high ignition and boiling point so you need really hight temps to achieve a complete clean.

If you looked under the bonnet of my series 80, you'd see a conglomeration of fuel lines. hoses and a small fuel tank. Always freaks out mechanics, who haven't got a clue until you tell them and then they go into defensive mode. Claiming it will ruin the engine, which is a laugh, if they knew anything about diesels, they would know they are designed to run on seed oils. Modern computer engines, may create problems, but do know a few people who run very modern engine on seed oils with no problems at all. We save thousands a year in fuel costs and most of the venues we play at, give us their used oil, so we can travel round Aus and have, without running out. I carry filters for the oil we collect and am working on putting a centrifuge into the big trailer, as it will only take up as small amount of room even with all the band gear.

Need to win lotto so can get a big electric long range bus, have to buy a ticket one day.

[2Smiths]

So...where do you obtain biodiesel?

I guess what I'm asking is:

1) How "available" is it?

2) On a stock standard turbo-diesel engine, what - if any - mods need to be done to run biodiesel?

3) Are there other trade-offs, such as worse fuel economy/less power and torque?

I for one would love to travel the country paying minimal $ for fuel...(Who wouldn't). But I feel there has to be a catch somewhere...

Make my own biodiesel, as many others do, don't know where you can get it. I make it out of the dregs from my centrifuge, don't make a lot as it only needs a couple of litres for starting and stopping at the end of the day. Have 3 turbo engines running on it, all Di engines, along with tractors lister genny and a common rail 671gm which drives my boat. The bus has an extra fuel tank for starting, which fill with dino when it gets low and run out of BD.

To run an engine properly, the oil has to be filtered (or centrifuged) and you need a heat exchanger to heat the oil before going into the engine. It's also best to use a throw away inline filter, to catch anything that gets past the filtering, depending on the engine, get about 1000klm from a throw away.

Been running things on seed oils since the late 1970's, never had a problem other than blocked throw away filters and the smell is either a BBQ, or from Indian restaurants, curry. Not an unpleasant smell at all, according to those who experience it, as for power lose, no difference really and no difference in torque output.

Engines last longer as the oil is a great lubricator and diesel is not. Sold a series 60 2h which had done over 650000klms on oil and it still went like a charm. Rebuilt a 12ht series 60 at 520000klms, as it was down on power, turned out it was the new turbo I'd put on that was faulty, still have it and it flies. My series 80 1htd had done just over 300000klms when got it because the engine was stuffed, so rebuilt it and now it has done over 250000klms on oil and absolutely flies along. Engines tend to run cooler on seed oil for some reason, may have to do with the low evaporation point of fossil fuels, but never gone into it.

From my experience, those that have problems, think they can just put in oil and off they go, don't filter the oil properly, or think they don't have to use inline filters, a push pump, or a HE. There is always some fats left over in the oil and some water, unless you use new oil. There is a process I've used which takes out all the fats and water content making the oil very thin, but you need to bring the oil to boiling to achieve that and without specific equipment, it can be dangerous as seed oils have a very high ignition and boiling point so you need really hight temps to achieve a complete clean.

If you looked under the bonnet of my series 80, you'd see a conglomeration of fuel lines. hoses and a small fuel tank. Always freaks out mechanics, who haven't got a clue until you tell them and then they go into defensive mode. Claiming it will ruin the engine, which is a laugh, if they knew anything about diesels, they would know they are designed to run on seed oils. Modern computer engines, may create problems, but do know a few people who run very modern engine on seed oils with no problems at all. We save thousands a year in fuel costs and most of the venues we play at, give us their used oil, so we can travel round Aus and have, without running out. I carry filters for the oil we collect and am working on putting a centrifuge into the big trailer, as it will only take up as small amount of room even with all the band gear.

Need to win lotto so can get a big electric long range bus, have to buy a ticket one day.

Wow! Great reply!

Yep, have been doing some reading up. As you say (and as Bruce alluded earlier), there's no "just chuck it in and drive it", unless it's been pre-processed elsewhere (or is a "blend").

Def. not something to be entered into as a newbie unless you have time, patience, and a willingness to learn...esp. given some of the conversion processes/chemicals involved!

I suspect that, having read Terry's earlier prognostications (and a few related articles on diesel), the next "growth industry" in the motorhome space might just be converting existing diesel buses to large PV array/battery-backed, all-electric drivetrains. Hmmm...Might open up a motorhome dealership selling Jayco or Winnebagos, then a few years down the track, open up a powertrain conversion business next door...sort of like the people who open a tattoo studio, and then "bolt-on" a tattoo removal business behind/next door.

Great "repeat" business!

[T1 Terry]

If govts weren't so interested in lining their own pockets and the pockets of their mates, all diesel vehicle would now run on LNG. The Sydney public bus fleet runs on natural gas, we have sh*tte loads of the stuff and we let it be sold to other countries while we have a shortage here at home. There is an LNG bowser in the servo in Tarcutta so that proves it can be done, the govt just has no interest in doing it because there isn't any money in it for them so it just won't happen.
The same as there is no incentives in Aust to buy electric cars, same deal, no money in their pockets to change to non polluting electric cars so they have no interest in it ever happening. Fortunately they don't control the market place so private enterprise is setting up their own electric recharging grid and making the push to electric vehicles a reality.
As far as petrol or diesel powered cars and motorhomes, will there still be a market for vehicle ownership by the general public in 10yr time?
Think of a massive Uber type vehicle network where a car arrives at your front door, takes you to your destination and then moves onto the next pick up or to recharge, all without a driver or with a base the driver picks up their drive car and drops it off at their destination and a fleet bus that picks up and drops off the client at the door step. No need for a car, car insurance, parking, no more parking stations at train stations or in the cities, possibly no need for fuel stations as such but more depots where you swap vehicles and continue on your journey.
There are huge disruptions on the horizon, the Industrial Revolution was a mere hiccough in the workforce compared to what is just around the corner. There is a very valid reason why there are no vehicle manufacturers in Australia and it has little to do with the share of the domestic market and a lot more to do with having any market at all ...... The same goes for the fuel refineries, they know what is coming and it isn't good news that would spur on any investment in upgrading their technology.
LNG fuel gas turbines for heavy vehicles and solar/wind farms to power recharging stations for those that don't want a vehicle swap arrangement or for travelling to places that don't have a vehicle swap network but rather a refuelling/charging/service agency, that is how I see the future direction our whole transport system going over the next 10 yrs.
Think that is unrealistic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b3ttqYDwF0 even the first few mins will open your eyes to just how fast things changed 120yrs ago, then the rate of charge more recently over the yrs ..... anyone remember the analog phone or even the phone that plugged into the wall and had a dial on it?

T1 Terry

[native pepper]

Wow! Great reply!

Yep, have been doing some reading up. As you say (and as Bruce alluded earlier), there's no "just chuck it in and drive it", unless it's been pre-processed elsewhere (or is a "blend").

Def. not something to be entered into as a newbie unless you have time, patience, and a willingness to learn...esp. given some of the conversion processes/chemicals involved!

I suspect that, having read Terry's earlier prognostications (and a few related articles on diesel), the next "growth industry" in the motorhome space might just be converting existing diesel buses to large PV array/battery-backed, all-electric drivetrains. Hmmm...Might open up a motorhome dealership selling Jayco or Winnebagos, then a few years down the track, open up a powertrain conversion business next door...sort of like the people who open a tattoo studio, and then "bolt-on" a tattoo removal business behind/next door.

Great "repeat" business!

It's only complicated if you use biodiesel, most start on dino and switch to oil. Making BD is a risky business, because of the many variables involved, so many times it is hit and miss. Have had a few batches which have failed or have taken months to properly convert and you have to take out all the fats during the process. In fact I avoid making bd as much as I can, but have to do something with the dregs from the centrifuge, which convert to bd very well and all that's left is the left over, which then goes onto making my soap. If you wan the best cleaner on the planet, make some BD, is removes oil stains and just about everything else and like seed oils, will eat through most synthetic things. I have a pair of top of the range suede boots, which I used to play in, one day spilt some bd and walked through it, a few weeks later put the boots on and the soles felt sticky. Started loading our gear into the venue and noticed a steam of black stuff on the floor when coming out again, when I turned around with some gear, felt this lump in my foot. Looked down and a large piece of the sole was hanging off, lifted my foot and noticed the soles were falling apart and could pull large lumps off them. So played in sandals that night and the boots have been relegated to the bin.

The problem with switching to LNG, is pollution and it will continue to enhance global warming, which is death sentence for life on the planet. The only alternative is electric and in my opinion, they refuse to develop an electric car or solar lifepo4 battery industry here, because all the political parties are controlled by the fossil fuel industry, so it will never happen.

If we had decent governments, we'd be running all diesels on biodiesel and seed oils now and have a wonderful growing and environmentally friendly fuel industry. As it is, our society will collapse because of the deep ignorance and primitive minded stupidity of our political party system, which is unconstitutional in many respects.

Personally couldn't care less, have no real fuel costs, my BD costs me less than 30clt to make and have no power costs. Along with excellent health, no medication and my living costs are very low. The money I make, can almost all be spent on having a good time and evolving my lifestyle.

I remember party lines and Phones you had to wind a certain number of times so the operator and others knew who should pick it up.